Delta Virtual Airlines Water Cooler | Airline Operations |
WHY NOT have a Fuel Planning Challenge? |
DVA3551
Captain, B737-800
Joined on September 15 2006
Century Club
Online Century Club
Halifax, NS Canada
167 legs, 399.8 hours
146 legs,
362.2 hours online 141 legs,
342.6 hours ACARS 73 legs,
185.0 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
July 30 2008 23:29 ET by Michael Chute
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In this day of soaring fuel prices and airline route cutbacks, why don't we at Delta institute a fuel planning challenge.
Rules could be something like maximixing payloads; minimizing fuel used and flying the leg within the planned flight times.
The more payload, the best +/- fight time to schedule and the least fuel used would win
If you choose more fuel in place of payload and arrive with excess fob, you would loose to someone who arrives within the same +/- time with more payload and less fuel on board
I really have not thought this through totally, obviously, but this kind of challenge would be a useful teching/learning excercise paricularly for the inexperienced.
Any comments?
Mike Chute DVA 3551
Michael ChuteCaptain, B737-800
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DVA4808
Captain, B737-800
Joined on August 05 2007
DVA Fifteen-Year Anniversary
"Fly Delta Jets" MS USA
26 legs, 47.8 hours
7 legs,
17.1 hours online 9 legs,
19.4 hours ACARS 4 legs,
9.3 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
August 05 2008 22:18 ET by Pat McCarthy
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Michael, I know you posted this several days ago - but I agree, this would be a great event. Most sim pilots really just don't pay too much attention to fuel useage; they just put more than enough to get there, often arriving with a 50% fuel load. I think we could all use some "sharpening of the pencil" in this regard.
I'll participate; just get it set up!
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DVA5897
Captain, B737-800
Joined on May 05 2008
"Icare, Icare, Ubi es?" Western Europe
21 legs, 38.4 hours
10 legs,
24.3 hours online 20 legs,
37.4 hours ACARS 1 legs,
2.8 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
August 06 2008 05:10 ET by Peter Mortelmans
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I like the idea. Some comments on the rules though: The factor safety should not be compromised, so there should always be fuel for holdings, missed approaches, alternates, and reserve. For a short flight, it can happen that you land with more than 50% of the initial fuel. So there are limits to minimizing fuel.
There are more variables than just fuel and payload: route and altitude selection in function of winds, use of reduced take-off, efficient taxiing, etc...
The best way to measure is to let everybody start with e.g. 30000 lbs payload, and the same leg for everybody (e.g. KATL-KJFK). The first challenge for the pilot is to choose the most suited aircraft.
Routes should be realistic (e.g. it should exist on flightaware)
Real arrival fuel should not be less than .... (this could be simplified and fix e.g. 7000 Lbs for everybody). If a pilot lands with less than that, there should be evidence of holding patterns or missed approaches (should be traceable in acars).
Peter MortelmansCaptain, B737-800
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DVA3551
Captain, B737-800
Joined on September 15 2006
Century Club
Online Century Club
Halifax, NS Canada
167 legs, 399.8 hours
146 legs,
362.2 hours online 141 legs,
342.6 hours ACARS 73 legs,
185.0 hours event
|
Posted onPost created on
August 06 2008 23:09 ET by Michael Chute
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Thanks fellows---I realixe the variables are daunting but I will take ALL ideas and put it to paper and see what happens
Percentages (%) can be a great equalizers between variables and I want to thank both of you for your comments
I'll see if I can get something concrete to offer the "board"
Mike Chute DVA 3551
Michael ChuteCaptain, B737-800
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DVA3280
Senior Captain, B767-300
COMM E-MAIL
Joined on June 28 2006
Online Six Century Club
Events Double Century Club
Million Mile Club
Millennium Club
50 State Club
Safari Club
Tin Dispatcher
DVA Fifteen-Year Anniversary
"Keep Climbing!" Coral Gables, FL
1,235 legs, 3,325.6 hours
1,200 legs,
3,254.3 hours online 1,144 legs,
3,053.6 hours ACARS 259 legs,
682.3 hours event 211 legs dispatched, 126.8
hours
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Posted onPost created on
August 09 2008 00:45 ET by Robby Chiste
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There are probably over 1000 variables that could possibly be factored into something like this.
If you want to go for it, by all means do so, I just don't feel like it would be an easy task at all.
Regards,
Robby ChisteSenior Captain, B767-300
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DVA3432
First Officer, B777-200
Joined on August 07 2006
Century Club
"Mile High Blackout" Aurora, CO USA
152 legs, 525.6 hours
43 legs,
139.8 hours online 101 legs,
431.8 hours ACARS 3 legs,
5.4 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
August 09 2008 00:52 ET by Mike Peterson
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also for this most of us with payware would have to learn how the use the "cost Index" part of the FMC. what ever number you put into this box dictates a lot about fuel consumption (so I'm told). I usually put in 100 in this box for the PMDG 747 but truthfully I have absolutely no clue what it does.....
Mike PetersonFirst Officer, B777-200
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DVA4917
Assistant Chief Pilot, MD-88
Joined on August 29 2007
Online Double Century Club
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Stock Car Racing Club
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DVA Fifteen-Year Anniversary
"Welcome to wherever you are..." Defiance, OH
578 legs, 1,632.6 hours
232 legs,
657.7 hours online 570 legs,
1,621.1 hours ACARS 15 legs,
31.5 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
August 10 2008 14:02 ET by Tony Stork
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I agree this would be fun but like people are saying, lots of variables to figure out.
Mike, I agree, no idea what the cost index really changes.
Tony StorkAssistant Chief Pilot, MD-88
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DVA3432
First Officer, B777-200
Joined on August 07 2006
Century Club
"Mile High Blackout" Aurora, CO USA
152 legs, 525.6 hours
43 legs,
139.8 hours online 101 legs,
431.8 hours ACARS 3 legs,
5.4 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
August 10 2008 22:24 ET by Mike Peterson
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this thread mad me feel the need to go read up on the PMDG manuals and its simple...ish for FS but there is still much to learn about what numbers to use....
Cost Index: The cost index number is a
scale value from 00 to 99 (0000 to 9999 on
actual aircraft) which helps to determine a
level of economy for aircraft performance
calculation.
Cost index is calculated as the aircraft
operating cost divided by fuel cost. [($/hour
aircraft operating cost) / (Fuel Cost in
Cents/Pound)] A cost index of 00 will result
in the maximum cost economy, with slow
climb rates, maximum range cruise and slow
descent speeds predicted by the FMC in
order to minimize fuel burn. A high cost
index will result in higher climb, cruise and
descent speeds. The cost index is designed
to provide a relative index of the cost of
aircraft operation vs. time en-route.
Mike PetersonFirst Officer, B777-200
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DVA6086
Captain, B777-200
OLP
Joined on June 29 2008
Double Century Club
"Never say no, try anything twice" Romania
281 legs, 737.4 hours
29 legs,
50.3 hours online 279 legs,
736.2 hours ACARS 2,853 legs, 7,687.7 hours total
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Posted onPost created on
August 11 2008 12:52 ET by Teodor Negru
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my approach to this challenge would be: set a leg, a payload to carry and a minimum landing fuel quantity for everybody. any library plane can be entered as long as it can carry the payload and cover the distance (i'd say a short-medium distance, like 500-1000 nm and a payload that can be carried by most jets), then take into account the fuel on takeoff and the fuel on landing (thus having the fuel consumption). i'd rank people based on the fuel consumption both in the plane category (for instance A319) and overall, and in case of equality on the takeoff / lnading fuel qty.
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DVA3280
Senior Captain, B767-300
COMM E-MAIL
Joined on June 28 2006
Online Six Century Club
Events Double Century Club
Million Mile Club
Millennium Club
50 State Club
Safari Club
Tin Dispatcher
DVA Fifteen-Year Anniversary
"Keep Climbing!" Coral Gables, FL
1,235 legs, 3,325.6 hours
1,200 legs,
3,254.3 hours online 1,144 legs,
3,053.6 hours ACARS 259 legs,
682.3 hours event 211 legs dispatched, 126.8
hours
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Posted onPost created on
August 11 2008 14:31 ET by Robby Chiste
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The default cost index for the 767 is 80, I use this for all my Boeings and it works just fine.
Regards,
Robby ChisteSenior Captain, B767-300
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