Delta Virtual Airlines Water Cooler | Airline Operations |
Will I be credited????? |
DVA7484
Captain, B767-300
Joined on July 01 2009
50 State Club
Double Century Club
Online Double Century Club
"Chinook crews carry everything!" Charter Township of Clinton, MI
262 legs, 1,116.0 hours
232 legs,
995.9 hours online 260 legs,
1,104.6 hours ACARS 2 legs,
5.2 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 22 2011 07:07 ET by David Smith
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I am a 767 driver and I use my Level_D 767 exclusively. When they added the winglets, to the Level_D, they claimed that it equates to a 4% fuel decrease in fuel usage. After doing some math I figured that I could fly from Hong Kong (VHHH) to Detroit (KDTW) and still have 45 minutes fuel left in the tanks at the gate.
I tested my theory by flying VHHH to KDTW and I made it with 1.1 hours of fuel in the tanks. I did not submit the flight through Acars mainly because I received a message from Acars which asked if I wanted to continue the flight even though it may not be approved due to the trip being out of the 767 range (roughly 7,200nm).
If I did submit the flight would it, indeed, have been rejected?. Are there any numbers, in the real world, that support the range increase for the 767 with winglets?.
Thanks
Dave
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DVA2701
Senior Captain, B777-200
OLP
Joined on November 21 2005
50 State Club
Everett 500 Club
Million Mile Club
Globetrotter
Online Nine Century
Millennium Club
DVA Fifteen-Year Anniversary
Denver, CO
1,041 legs, 3,309.1 hours
997 legs,
3,153.7 hours online 1,020 legs,
3,263.5 hours ACARS 21 legs,
38.4 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 22 2011 08:30 ET by Dean Shultz
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You need enough fuel to fly to your destination, then to your alternate, and and then still have 45 minutes of fuel remaining to be legal. However, with that said, it would probably get accepted...
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DVA7577
First Officer, B777-200
OLP
Joined on July 18 2009
50 State Club
Triple Century Club
Everett 250 Club
DVA Fifteen-Year Anniversary
Buffalo, NY USA
334 legs, 637.3 hours
29 legs,
47.8 hours online 332 legs,
629.7 hours ACARS 5 legs,
9.4 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 22 2011 17:35 ET by Jesse Kovacs
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It would have been rejected. Just because you "happened" to make it by certain circumstances, no airline would attempt to fly an aircraft outside of its range. The winglets are designed to decrease fuel costs, not extend the range of the aircraft. Any flight that exceeds the maximum range of an aircraft will not be approved.
Jesse KovacsFirst Officer, B777-200
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DVA7484
Captain, B767-300
Joined on July 01 2009
50 State Club
Double Century Club
Online Double Century Club
"Chinook crews carry everything!" Charter Township of Clinton, MI
262 legs, 1,116.0 hours
232 legs,
995.9 hours online 260 legs,
1,104.6 hours ACARS 2 legs,
5.2 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 22 2011 18:41 ET by David Smith
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Jesse Kovacs wrote:
It would have been rejected. Just because you "happened" to make it by certain circumstances, no airline would attempt to fly an aircraft outside of its range. The winglets are designed to decrease fuel costs, not extend the range of the aircraft. Any flight that exceeds the maximum range of an aircraft will not be approved.
Ahhhhhh but doesn't DVA say that if you can make it, without refueling, then you can do the flight? That's why I asked the question. I can make it but in the real world........ Delta would not sanction this flight. So let me rephrase the question. According to the Delta " if you can do it without refueling then you can fly the route" applies here. But are there limitations to the make it, fly it policy.....or should I say guidelines.
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DVA9655
Senior Captain, B747-400
OLP
Joined on January 01 2011
50 State Club
Everett 500 Club
DVA Ten-Year Anniversary
Golden State Club
Two Million Mile Club
Globetrotter
Online Double Century Club
Nine Century Club
"DAL9655, you are cleared for takeoff" New York, NY
942 legs, 4,891.8 hours
234 legs,
857.2 hours online 742 legs,
3,950.9 hours ACARS 12 legs,
40.6 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 22 2011 21:47 ET by Remy Mermelstein
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I have tried that with the 737BBJ and it didn't work, sorry bud. They will just reject it.
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DVA7484
Captain, B767-300
Joined on July 01 2009
50 State Club
Double Century Club
Online Double Century Club
"Chinook crews carry everything!" Charter Township of Clinton, MI
262 legs, 1,116.0 hours
232 legs,
995.9 hours online 260 legs,
1,104.6 hours ACARS 2 legs,
5.2 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 23 2011 05:12 ET by David Smith
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Ok. Thanks Guys. I really do appericiate your time and your input. It was a long flight and I surly wouldn't do it again without getting credit for it. Don't you agree?
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DVA9655
Senior Captain, B747-400
OLP
Joined on January 01 2011
50 State Club
Everett 500 Club
DVA Ten-Year Anniversary
Golden State Club
Two Million Mile Club
Globetrotter
Online Double Century Club
Nine Century Club
"DAL9655, you are cleared for takeoff" New York, NY
942 legs, 4,891.8 hours
234 legs,
857.2 hours online 742 legs,
3,950.9 hours ACARS 12 legs,
40.6 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 23 2011 06:57 ET by Remy Mermelstein
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Yes, I totally agree.
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DVA1730
Captain, MD-11
OLP
Joined on June 17 2004
50 State Club
Online Double Century Club
B737 100 Club
Triple Century Club
DVA Twenty-Year Anniversary
Tucker, GA
309 legs, 799.6 hours
281 legs,
739.4 hours online 244 legs,
603.6 hours ACARS 36 legs,
83.7 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 27 2011 00:11 ET by Lee Barber
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I have to disagree with Jesse here. As long as you weren't over MTOW at takeoff, I don't see an issue. Published ranges for airliners are don't really tell the whole story. A 767 can fly quite a ways over 7200 miles with full tanks, but its going to be payload restricted because of MTOW. The published range for any given aircraft reflects the range with a "normal" payload plus fuel resulting in a takeoff at MTOW. If you carry less payload, you can take on more fuel and fly longer, but you're going to be making less money because you're carrying less. This also raises the question of what a "normal" payload is. Some routes are going to fill all the seats and carry a full belly of cargo, some aren't. I think of the 7200 mi figure as a general operational guideline, not a hard and fast number. Jesse states that the winglets don't increase the range of the aircraft, but they do (see how many wingletted 757's are now hopping the pond these days). Any aerodynamic improvement that reduces fuel burn will both reduce costs on existing routes and open up the possibility of using the same aircraft on longer range flights. With the reduced fuel burn from the winglets you may very well be able to carry a reasonable payload on that route (especially eastbound with the prevailing winds) with fuel reserves. I doubt it would be profitable IRL, but you clearly landed with a reasonable fuel reserve and I think you should get credit for the flight (as long as you took off at a legal weight ).
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DVA7484
Captain, B767-300
Joined on July 01 2009
50 State Club
Double Century Club
Online Double Century Club
"Chinook crews carry everything!" Charter Township of Clinton, MI
262 legs, 1,116.0 hours
232 legs,
995.9 hours online 260 legs,
1,104.6 hours ACARS 2 legs,
5.2 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 27 2011 07:21 ET by David Smith
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I flew the flight on Acars using Vatsim weather. The Level_D was configured with full PAX (260) and no cargo. Fuel (145,000lbs) was just shy of full tanks. TOW was 3,600 lbs under MTOW (408,000lbs). Cruise altitude was at FL330 with average speed of 508 kts. Sim routes did not offer a route from VHHH to KDTW so I used Route finder to find the route (besides I pay them to find routes anyway ;-) ). Flight planning took 3 hrs from paper to FMC. Now....Jet A cost (average) $4.67 per gallon. Jet A weighs 6.84lbs per gallon. So dividing 145,000lbs by 6.84lbs I get 21,198 gallons. 21,198 X 4.67 gives me a fuel cost of $98,600. Divide that by 260 gives me a base ticket cost of $380.00 per ticket. By the time you add Pilot/Co-Pilot, and Stewardess salaries (roughly) $10,000 (probably over kill) I get $108,600. Divide that by 260 I get $418.00 per ticket operating cost. Delta economy ticket is $2,281.30. Would I have made any money for the route I flew? These are the numbers I used before I made the flight. The figures are not exact but close enough for my purposes. So, as I said, Acars warned that the flight may not be approved due to the range of the 767. Now you have all of the information that I used to make the flight. :-)
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DVA3787
Senior Captain, CRJ-200
OLP
Joined on December 01 2006
Double Century Club
50 State Club
Online Double Century Club
"Small planes don't make small brains" Western Europe
277 legs, 515.9 hours
204 legs,
397.0 hours online 244 legs,
456.2 hours ACARS 39 legs,
80.6 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 27 2011 14:09 ET by Mark Salter
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Well guys, I'm impressed with the quality of your statements and your arguments are very compelling. As you guys have meticulously figured out, there are simply too many variables that come in to play in determining what truly constitutes a "safe" flight. It would be unfair and impractical to give staff the responsibility of determining what is a "safe" flight for every PIREP. Most of them would not have the time or the will power to investigate through all of the variables like you guys did. It would be almost impossible to devise a policy to control all of the differences (and opinions) associated with this as well. The hard number for aircraft range has been determined to be the most fair guideline for PIREPs while still maintaining efficiency in the airline. With that said, I'm always open and welcome to new ideas and am impressed with your presentations.
Mark SalterSenior Captain, CRJ-200
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DVA5929
Senior Captain, B747-400
OLP
Joined on May 10 2008
Million Mile Club
Online Quadruple Century Club
Everett 500 Club
Globetrotter
Six Century Club
50 State Club
DVA Ten-Year Anniversary
"It's buried under a big W!" TX USA
651 legs, 3,806.1 hours
472 legs,
2,922.9 hours online 565 legs,
3,319.5 hours ACARS 8 legs,
18.9 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 27 2011 14:18 ET by Nicholas Carpenter
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If it was up to me I would have probably approved the report, but I believe that the final decision lies with the ops people.
Nicholas CarpenterSenior Captain, B747-400
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DVA1730
Captain, MD-11
OLP
Joined on June 17 2004
50 State Club
Online Double Century Club
B737 100 Club
Triple Century Club
DVA Twenty-Year Anniversary
Tucker, GA
309 legs, 799.6 hours
281 legs,
739.4 hours online 244 legs,
603.6 hours ACARS 36 legs,
83.7 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 27 2011 15:30 ET by Lee Barber
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Might I suggest adding an explanation of the PIC's calculations in the comments section for flights over the specified aircraft range? That would give the staff a quick way to determine if the proper planning had been performed and the flight flown in a safe manner. Such comments would include no wind flight distance, wind corrected flight distance, payload, fuel load, TOW, estimated winds enroute, landing fuel, etc. Saves the staff from having to dig up the calculations themselves but allows for a quick logic check of the numbers.
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DVA9655
Senior Captain, B747-400
OLP
Joined on January 01 2011
50 State Club
Everett 500 Club
DVA Ten-Year Anniversary
Golden State Club
Two Million Mile Club
Globetrotter
Online Double Century Club
Nine Century Club
"DAL9655, you are cleared for takeoff" New York, NY
942 legs, 4,891.8 hours
234 legs,
857.2 hours online 742 legs,
3,950.9 hours ACARS 12 legs,
40.6 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 27 2011 16:37 ET by Remy Mermelstein
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That is a pretty good idea, excerpt for the fact that some pilots (not me) who do those flights might not know how to do those calculations, and I also think that it would be hard to make sure pilots do it, I think many would forget to put it into the comments section. I think to do it properly, Luke would have to make it so that if ACARS determines that the flight route you are doing is above it's determined range of the specific aircraft you are doing the flight in, then it would give you a prompt to make sure you do put in the information that you have described. Otherwise I think the staff would have a lot of PIREPS being rejected, and a lot of complaints from the pilots about that.
My question is though, if you use ACARS for the flight that you are doing, and if you make it fine than ACARS will record it as that. So why wouldn't that be accepted?
Just something to think about.
~Remy
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DVA1730
Captain, MD-11
OLP
Joined on June 17 2004
50 State Club
Online Double Century Club
B737 100 Club
Triple Century Club
DVA Twenty-Year Anniversary
Tucker, GA
309 legs, 799.6 hours
281 legs,
739.4 hours online 244 legs,
603.6 hours ACARS 36 legs,
83.7 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 27 2011 18:08 ET by Lee Barber
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A couple of points in response to Remy...
1: I don't mean this in any way to sound elitist, but if you can't run the numbers for a flight then you probably shouldn't be flying it. Flying for DVA is a hobby and there is a wide range of skill levels here and I think all should be welcome, but if you want to "push the envelope" I think you need to be able to calculate if you're doing it "safely" or not. I personally use FSBuild (with ASE wind input) and TOPCAT which take care of almost all of the math involved. I use the FMC's estimates as a cross check. I have a standard preflight routine and planning for a long haul typically takes me 30-45 minutes. I think you're idea to prompt for the input of this information is a good one, but it's probably not going to be high on the priority list to add to ACARS. If DVA makes a policy change to allow flights like this in the interim, the burden is going to have to be on the pilots to remember to add this information.
2: My understanding is that ACARS is going to flag any flight beyond the specified range of a given aircraft and standard policy is to reject any flagged flight. Even if you're just going by fuel at landing, It's going to be very time consuming for the staff to calculate time/fuel burn to alternate + reserve fuel for each flight. Again, I think the burden should be on the pilot to prove that the flight was done in accordance with DVA policy.
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DVA7484
Captain, B767-300
Joined on July 01 2009
50 State Club
Double Century Club
Online Double Century Club
"Chinook crews carry everything!" Charter Township of Clinton, MI
262 legs, 1,116.0 hours
232 legs,
995.9 hours online 260 legs,
1,104.6 hours ACARS 2 legs,
5.2 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 27 2011 18:13 ET by David Smith
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I actually did this flight because of a lillte friendly banter with some 777 drivers. I stated that, with the winglet model, I could go just about anywhere that a 777 driver could go using my Level_D 767. I did the flight just to be sure I wasn't blowing my horn to much. I wanted to see if the plane would, safely, fly the route with enough fuel for 1 hour as my secondary was Toledo. I am very suprised at the interest the post received. The input has given me quite a bit of information that I never considered before. But, then again, that's why it takes me so long to do a flight plan Thanks everyone.
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DVA9655
Senior Captain, B747-400
OLP
Joined on January 01 2011
50 State Club
Everett 500 Club
DVA Ten-Year Anniversary
Golden State Club
Two Million Mile Club
Globetrotter
Online Double Century Club
Nine Century Club
"DAL9655, you are cleared for takeoff" New York, NY
942 legs, 4,891.8 hours
234 legs,
857.2 hours online 742 legs,
3,950.9 hours ACARS 12 legs,
40.6 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 27 2011 18:51 ET by Remy Mermelstein
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Hey, so in response to Lee,
1. I agree with you totally on the fact that if you are going to push the envelope than you should be able to calculate the #'s yourself, I myself usually take about 45 minutes to plan a flight and I too have TOPCAT and FS Commander which
takes care of almost all of the calculations, I then check it with my own calculations. For the ACARS prompt that I said, I think pilots should be able to remember that the need to put in the calculations for the staff, but if they dont remember which I believe could happen than the staff will be wasting time and efforts trying to figure out if the flight was "legal". Secondly, I was not implying that I think that chnging ACARS to do that should be high priority, I personally don't care if it happens in 1 week, 1 year or 100 years, I do not require it.
2. I don't think the staff should ever have to do any work to make sure the flights legal, pilots flying should fly within the rules put down, and they, if not using ACARS and submitting an offline report they should input the correct info. I for one have made the mistake of putting in wrong information in the PIREPS because I was tired or rushed and I have corrected it, or written an email to the staff explaining it, but overall the staff here should not be worried about "false" flights, or flights flown out of the rules. If you are going to do a flight, do it right!
Thx.
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DVA7484
Captain, B767-300
Joined on July 01 2009
50 State Club
Double Century Club
Online Double Century Club
"Chinook crews carry everything!" Charter Township of Clinton, MI
262 legs, 1,116.0 hours
232 legs,
995.9 hours online 260 legs,
1,104.6 hours ACARS 2 legs,
5.2 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 28 2011 04:20 ET by David Smith
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I agree. Pilots that take the test, for their rating, should have to demonstrate their ability to plan a flight. Winds aloft, and on the ground, should be checked before each flight. Fuel required upon departure and landing should all factor into the equation. What your actual load is also comes into the calculation of how much and how far. And finally the time of day the flight is to be flown. Prevailing winds have a lot to do with the "can I make it" question. The extra thing that I find to be fun is to get ticket prices, for the flight planned, and figure out if I made, or lost, any money. In my beginning days I have made some flights that I would of had to lay off the Stewardess and find me a local Cessna 152 pilot to make the trip break even The thing I have to remember is that there are some pilots that fly just for fun and they are just as much a part of Delta as I am. Should Delta test pilots to insure that they have the knowledge, and flight planning ability, to fly across the pond? or more difficult to fly the big 747, 767, 777 aircraft? If we did then we would loose a lot of pilots that are here just to enjoy themselves. Maybe delta could have a ground school, or study guide, to teach and test the pilot for an ATP rating. Then the ratings would be something like John Jones, Captain ATP. Johnny would then be 1 step up from a Captain and have the Airline Transport Pilot attached to his title. But there again we must think about our "just for fun" Pilots. And last, but not least, pilots that grab their flight plans from Sim Route or Route Finder, etc. Those are preferred routes but they can not be the holy grail of flight planning. The "preferred routes" were flown at a certain time of day, month, and year. If you don't fly them at exactly the same time, as the pilots that created the route did, then you might run into trouble. The winds, and the weather, change constantly. The routes are but guidelines. It is up to the pilot to figure out what his real course will be. I have seen comments in the chat window, on Acars, that a pilot couldn't make the flight and that the route was garbage cause the pilot ran out of fuel.
I apologize for turning this into an newspaper article. But there is a lot of good information in this post from a lot of different pilots. I just wanted to put my 2 cents worth in.
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DVA9655
Senior Captain, B747-400
OLP
Joined on January 01 2011
50 State Club
Everett 500 Club
DVA Ten-Year Anniversary
Golden State Club
Two Million Mile Club
Globetrotter
Online Double Century Club
Nine Century Club
"DAL9655, you are cleared for takeoff" New York, NY
942 legs, 4,891.8 hours
234 legs,
857.2 hours online 742 legs,
3,950.9 hours ACARS 12 legs,
40.6 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 28 2011 07:09 ET by Remy Mermelstein
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So, David,
your post is awesome, and I agree with you totally. We do have a private pilot course in the flight academy which pilots can take, and I don't know how close it is to an ATP rating, but it is a nice challenging course as I have found out so farvin doing it. I think in response to your saying pilots should be more knowlegable about flight planning in bigger aircraft is a good idea, but most people I think don't have the time to spend 1 hour or more on flight planning.
Hope that helps.
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DVA3392
Senior Captain, B777-200
Joined on July 27 2006
Online Double Century Club
Three Million Mile Club
Millennium Club
"Triple Seven's where it's at!" Dublin, OH USA
1,020 legs, 6,303.4 hours
269 legs,
1,385.2 hours online 929 legs,
5,724.6 hours ACARS 11 legs,
36.0 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 28 2011 23:51 ET by Jarred Daugherty
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Remy Mermelstein wrote:
So, David,
your post is awesome, and I agree with you totally. We do have a private pilot course in the flight academy which pilots can take, and I don't know how close it is to an ATP rating, but it is a nice challenging course as I have found out so farvin doing it. I think in response to your saying pilots should be more knowlegable about flight planning in bigger aircraft is a good idea, but most people I think don't have the time to spend 1 hour or more on flight planning.
Hope that helps.
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DVA9655
Senior Captain, B747-400
OLP
Joined on January 01 2011
50 State Club
Everett 500 Club
DVA Ten-Year Anniversary
Golden State Club
Two Million Mile Club
Globetrotter
Online Double Century Club
Nine Century Club
"DAL9655, you are cleared for takeoff" New York, NY
942 legs, 4,891.8 hours
234 legs,
857.2 hours online 742 legs,
3,950.9 hours ACARS 12 legs,
40.6 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
September 29 2011 15:40 ET by Remy Mermelstein
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What's that supposed to mean jarred?
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DVA7577
First Officer, B777-200
OLP
Joined on July 18 2009
50 State Club
Triple Century Club
Everett 250 Club
DVA Fifteen-Year Anniversary
Buffalo, NY USA
334 legs, 637.3 hours
29 legs,
47.8 hours online 332 legs,
629.7 hours ACARS 5 legs,
9.4 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
October 01 2011 10:47 ET by Jesse Kovacs
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Lee Barber wrote:
I have to disagree with Jesse here. As long as you weren't over MTOW at takeoff, I don't see an issue.
This is a nonsense response. Just because you don't see an issue, you're going to try and discredit me. I WAS a staff member here, and KNOW the criteria for approval and rejection of PIREP's. The standard is clear, and flights exceeding the published range of an aircraft WILL NOT be approved. Argue with Senior Staff if you don't like it.
Lee Barber wrote:
Jesse states that the winglets don't increase the range of the aircraft, but they do (see how many wingletted 757's are now hopping the pond these days).
I never said they didn't. I said that they were DESIGNED to reduce fuel consumption. Obviously, this increases range somewhat, but it's not much. And, non-wingleted 757-200's can hop the pond because they have the RANGE.
Jesse KovacsFirst Officer, B777-200
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DVA9655
Senior Captain, B747-400
OLP
Joined on January 01 2011
50 State Club
Everett 500 Club
DVA Ten-Year Anniversary
Golden State Club
Two Million Mile Club
Globetrotter
Online Double Century Club
Nine Century Club
"DAL9655, you are cleared for takeoff" New York, NY
942 legs, 4,891.8 hours
234 legs,
857.2 hours online 742 legs,
3,950.9 hours ACARS 12 legs,
40.6 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
October 01 2011 11:05 ET by Remy Mermelstein
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Ok,
It seems like this is becoming one big fight. I think the bottom line which Jesse has made out and we have all kind of come too is this:
If the flight you are flying is over the aircrafts range you are flying it with than the flight will get rejected by the company's standards. To put it more simple, if you fly an aircraft outside of the ranges published in the AOM's in the document library then you are breaking company standards and the flight is likely to be rejected. Technically the second you go over the maximum capabilities if the aircraft that are published in the library than your flight should be held or rejected to investigate the reason.
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DVA7484
Captain, B767-300
Joined on July 01 2009
50 State Club
Double Century Club
Online Double Century Club
"Chinook crews carry everything!" Charter Township of Clinton, MI
262 legs, 1,116.0 hours
232 legs,
995.9 hours online 260 legs,
1,104.6 hours ACARS 2 legs,
5.2 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
October 13 2011 06:43 ET by David Smith
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New information I found reguarding the 767 range. http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_03_09/article_03_1.html
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